Talk:Johannes Ciconia

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I realize the possibility that anyone else will read this is extremely remote, but there are serious biographical issues that need to be resolved here. Hoppin (under References) has a detailed account of Ciconia's life. The substantial article in the 1980 Grove differs considerably from it in detail, and the even more substantial article in the 2001 Grove is different yet again. This is going to take some sorting out. Current research tends to the thought that there were two Johannes Ciconias: the father born around 1335 and the son around 1370. I wrote most of the bio from the Hoppin book. Anyway, needs to be fixed. What is certain is that all the music was by Ciconia junior. Antandrus 05:41, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree: I've just done a research project on Ciconia, and when I have time I'll correct the biography and expand details on his music. DonGoat 16:58, 23 Mar 2005 (BST)

The latest article which summarizes the arguments for and against the c. 1370 birth date is David Fallows in “Ciconia’s last songs and their milieu.” Vendrix, Philippe, editor. Johannes Ciconia: musicien de la transition. Turnhout: Brepols, 2003. pp. 107–130. It should be noted that every musicologist writing in this book accepts the c. 1370 birth date, though as Fallows admits, it's not been definitively proven. The official Library of Congress record still lists Ciconia ca. 1335-1412. The argument can be seen in the titles of works, such as: Clercx-Lejeune, Suzanne. “Ancora su Johannes Ciconia (1335-1411),” vs. Kreutziger-Herr, Annette. Johannes Ciconia (ca.1370–1412): Komponieren in einer Kultur des Wortes, Hamburger Beiträge zur Musikwissenschaft 39. Hamburg: Verlag der Musikalienhandlung K.D. Wagner, 1991. --Myke Cuthbert 15:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Which version of Italian[edit]

His ballati have texts in Italian, but which dialect? Is it the Tuscan dialect (Florentine), as used by Dante, Petrarch, et al. ? Badagnani 07:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there such a dialect as Flemish Italian?? :^) Sorry, no serious answer to your question. The French used by the Flemish composers of Ciconia's and later periods is equally exotic, IMO, as compared to the modern standard form. Rousse (talk) 17:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Add another musical sample, polyphonic with hocketing??[edit]

The sample now included, Sus un fontayne, is lovely, but I think it would demonstrate Ciconia's characteristic style far better to have something with 3 lines, demonstrating hocketing. For instance: His "amen" sections of motets in particular are highly characteristic, and absolutely wonderful to sing, with their cascading (to my mind's ear) effects. Would there be a copyright issue with including a sample of something like this? I've never tried to add a sound file to Wiki, but I'd be game to add 30 secs of something from my CD or two of Ciconia motets. Comments? Rousse (talk) 17:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The short answer is no, unfortunately it would be a copyright issue. Since the music is in public domain, "fair use" does not apply for commercial recordings of it, the rationale being something along the lines of "the scores are available, so perform it yourself." --Jashiin (talk) 17:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. Maybe I can harangue my local early-music performing friends to have a go at recording a digital sample for the public's edification. (maybe!) --Rousse (talk) 17:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


I've cleaned up the writing and presentation, reserving judgement on the content -- I'm an editor, not a musicologist. The article is written with great erudition and authority, but what are the sources? Stananson (talk) 12:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The sources are given. They were in the section titled "references and further reading" -- you've changed it to "further reading". In 2005 we didn't use footnotes. Antandrus (talk) 21:26, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Sus un fontayne[edit]

Anyone know why this piece has a particular section dedicated to its text and (non-free) translation? I think it overbalances the article, being about one, not really representative work, and would like to remove it. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 15:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Ciconia portrait?[edit]

When one searches for Johannes Ciconia, the usual little synopsis pops up, with a portrait, but the portrait is of César Franck; he shares a Belgian origin with Ciconia but their lifetimes are a few centuries apart. As the saying goes, nice try but no cigar. I doubt if there is any surviving likeness of Ciconia. Nicholas Wickenden — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:29, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

You're right, there's no image of Ciconia in any form. The best we could probably do is an image of one of the manuscripts of his songs. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 23:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Oh, and the manuscript currently on Wikipedia-Commons as "Ciconia-manuscript.png" is not an image of any of his works (it's by a composer named Berlatus), so please don't use that one. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 14:00, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

New music[edit]

I suggest to include the file at right.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:20, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Good idea. Feel free to add it. While a recording with live musicians would be better, MIDI is much better than nothing and it's well synthed. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 16:44, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Will do.Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:40, 19 October 2015 (UTC)