Talk:Scottish independence

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Historical Kingdom of Scotland[edit]

In the post Pictish period of Scotland, until James I ascends to the English throne, two major events define Scotland. First is the Battle of Brunanburh , fought in 937 between Æthelstan, King of England, and an alliance of Olaf Guthfrithson, King of Dublin; Constantine, King of Scotland and Owen, King of Strathclyde which ended in a draw, but also meant that Scotland would not be so easily swallowed into a united England as other areas. The second is the better known crisis of succession upon the death of Margaret, Maid of Norway, which was capitalized by Edward I, leading to the wars of Scottish independence.C. W. Gilmore (talk) 10:54, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Just as today, issues of the time became intertwined so James and Charles promised that they would rescind the Act of Union, just as today, the FM promises an independent Scotland would stay (or at least return) to the EU. The issues got mixed in the 1700s, just as they get mixed today and are used by the countries leaders, just as they get used today. Jacobitism and repeal of the Act of Union became connected as the hope of Scots for one, lay with the other.C. W. Gilmore (talk) 11:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Writing about the history of Scottish independence is made difficult by the changing meaning of terms such as 'the Scots' and 'Scotland' over time. Most writers are very careless of these terms.

The Scots originally inhabited the Highlands, and thus only the Highlands were 'Scot-land'.

The Lowlands, eventually part of 'Greater Scotland', were not home to Gaelic-speaking Scots but to Angles or 'English' people.

The south and east had been 'English' since at least the 7th century, about the same time that the Scots first settled in the north and west.

The south east was first the Anglian kingdom of Bernicia, later part of the English Kingdom of Northumbria, later still the Kingdom of Lothian. The Angles were joined by Saxon refugees and immigrants after the events of 1066.

'Greater Scotland' - what we now think of as the Kingdom of Scotland - was not fully established until the reign of King David. David was however sustained only by a Norman-French army, and he based himself in Edinburgh in the Anglo-Saxon lowland part of his kingdom. David's new Kingdom of 'Scotland' was in reality a Norman-ruled northern English kingdom with an unruly and almost un-governable northern territory - the original Scot-land after which, somewhat ironically, the whole kingdom would take its name. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.166.6 (talk) 14:43, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Requested move 31 October 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 09:59, 7 November 2017 (UTC)



Scottish independenceScottish independence movement – Per the similar move of Catalan independence to Catalan independence movement, which recently passed following my request. This article is about the movement for independence, not about the topic of independence itself.  ONR  (talk)  06:09, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

It is customary to explain *why* you are requesting a page move. Please outline your case so that other users can begin to consider it.Mais oui! (talk) 08:26, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Done.  ONR  (talk)  15:55, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
It would more accurate to say 'modern' movement, but that makes it more clumsy.C. W. Gilmore (talk) 01:26, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Support per nomination. The most-frequently indicated form at Category:Independence movements is, in fact, "independence movement". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 02:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose This article covers the topic of Scottish independence as well as multiple independence movements/referendums. Naming it as you suggest implies only a single movement. The comparison with Catalan breaks down here I think. -- Netoholic @ 06:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose, this is a much broader article, for example the section on the Kingdom of Scotland is nothing to do with the modern movement. Neither is the section on legitimacy. This article deals broadly with the topic of Scottish independence. If somebody wants to create a sub-article on the modern movement, feel free. Mais oui! (talk) 07:15, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per the above. I'm a huge fan of WP:CONSISTENCY, but it doesn't apply when the scope doesn't match. A viable approach would be a WP:SUMMARY split, so we have a consistent article on the modern movement, summarized here, and keep this broader article on the overall arc, which is of much more historic importance that the current political stuff.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  20:26, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Should Scottish nationalism redirect here?[edit]

I found that article when trying to read this one, and I noticed that it's a largely abandoned page that has been marked as needing "immediate" attention since 2012; after all these years, it's still only one paragraph. I was about to nominate it as a candidate for today's article for improvement & contact WikiProject Scotland about how such a significant and controversial topic has such a poor article, but then I realized it was the wrong article.

In short, it seems that more information about Scottish nationalism can be found on this article, and Scottish nationalism is a topic that's effectively inseparable from the Scottish independence movement; the Scottish nationalism article is duplicitous and provides no information that's not covered better by this article.

I'm posting here because this seems like the more likely of the two pages to get a reply from any interested editors, but if there's too little commentary (which is likely given that the most recent posts on this talk page were from 2017) or if it's too controversial of a proposed merge, I could instead try to bring this suggestion to the attention of third party editors by listing it as a requested merger.

Brendon the Wizard ✉️ 08:43, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm a bit sceptical of this. Certainly the two concepts are closely entwined *now*, but for a long time Scottish nationalism manifested itself in other ways, e.g. National Covenant (1949 petition for home rule), Claim of Right 1989. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:08, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
After having some time to think about it, I absolutely agree with you. We certainly wouldn't want the page Scottish nationalism to link to Scottish independence in the event that Scotland eventually does become independent, as the meaning of "nationalism" would obviously no longer refer only to the desire for independence, and you've accurately pointed out that pushes for increased autonomy have been done many times before. The best course of action for the Scottish nationalism article would simply be to expand it into a better article. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ 21:11, 4 July 2019 (UTC)