Talk:Quantitative genetics

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Merge with Population genetics?[edit]

population genetics ??? Michael Hardy 03:42, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No! I think the problem here is that the quantitative genetics page is not actually about quantitative genetics! In broad terms, quantitative genetics deals with the genetics of continuously varying characters - this may be in natural populations, or may not. It is often couched in terms of selection, but need not be (e.g.QTL analysis). In fact, Population genetics and quantitative genetics, although linked in some ways, each represent truly massive fields of their own.--DJO 22:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree with DJO. In fact, there are useful points of view and statements in the Population Genetics article, and I do not think it useful to re-state them here. [I liked particularly the Lamarkian overview made in the Population Genetics article.] I think the two should be wiki-linked. Concentrate here on the things which are different: namely the continuous variability of the phenotype. This adds a whole layer of complexity which Population Genetics avoids! But the need to consult both needs to be stated. Donach 01:17, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I also think that Quantitative genetics should remain distinct from pop-gen page. I'm glad to see that it has it's own page, however I do think this page could use some improvements. Can the equations be summarized or re-written into equation blocks rather than bolded text body? I feel that it is currently hard to follow. This page my even be improved by deleting the equations with '?'s. Second, I think this page would benefit from a History section that outlines the seminal researchers who started the field before DNA was even discovered (e.g. Fisher or Wright). Third there should be a section for multivariate trait analysis. I can add summeries of G, B and P matrices to the correlated attributes section. Personally this is the portion of Qgen that I need the most help understanding. Unfortunately wikipedia lacks most of the basic information about this major aspect about quantitative genetics. Petersoapes (talk) 16:33, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Recent work on Quantitative Genetics[edit]

  • I have recently done some tidy-up to the preface, Introduction, History and Basic Principles sections in order to help get this article on the right track (as I perceive it, of course). There is still much to do. I am largely responsible for the present Preface, and Basic Principles (up to the end of para 3). I have incorporated many sentences and ideas from other editors: but much of the detail is mine. (See my User page for my credentials!) A difficulty is trying to pitch this at the right level for most readers. It is a rather technical subject! Another issue is that I'm still coming to grips with Wiki Mark-up: for instance, there are many "refs" that still need to be fixed. I have used "ref" to create genuine footnotes, as well as citations. I hope that's okay.Donach (talk) 02:55, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for plunging in to fix problems in an article that has long needed a lot of improvement. (And thanks to Randykitty for moving your talk page section to the bottom, following the convention that new talk page sections go below previous sections.) I have the Falconer and Mackay textbook on quantitative genetics at hand in my office, so I will keep track of article changes as any editor here makes them. In article drafts of a couple other genetics articles that badly need updating I hope to implement a referencing system that I have seen put to good use in articles on related topics. Keep up the good work, and thanks for using the talk page to communicate with other editors. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 15:19, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Recently, added a Gene Effects section. Also cleaned up a lot of my Wiki Markup problems in making citations. (The "Missing Manual" diagrams are very unclear when printed out on A4. This contributed to some of my blunders. "ref name" is full of pitfalls, especially the different terminators for defining [....">] and invoking [...."/>]!) I intend to revise frequencies and the Mating System next; and to relocate it following Gene Effects. Then a section on the population mean will follow. It will then be possible to deal with the Genotypic Variances with some algebra, and fewer words. Donach (talk) 02:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Added the promised section on frequencies (having constructed a diagram on sexual reproduction first). Modified the variances section in anticipation of subsequent rearrangements. Modified the Mating System section because of present and future revisions, and renamed it Genetic drift and Dispersion. The population mean will follow soon, together with an exposition on Average "Breeding" value. Then we can re-tackle the Genotypic Variances in a logical way. Are we nearly at a stage where we can remove the "WP:SOFIXIT" ? After all my work, it irks me somewhat ! Donach (talk) 10:31, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Added some sentences (and references) on the Castle-Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium into the Frequencies section.Donach (talk) 05:09, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Added, within the Frequencies section, some comments re selfing - getting out of the random fert. "rut" that it's so easy to slip into. Also this starts focusing on the successes of inbreeding rather than always casting it in a bad light. Used a fourth-level heading to subdivide this section. Donach (talk) 00:00, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Tidied up the Allele and Genotype Frequency section; and expanded the Self Fertilization section sufficiently to prepare for things to come later. Donach (talk) 01:37, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Added section on the Population Mean.Donach (talk) 04:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Added Allele substitution.Donach (talk) 23:56, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Added (at last) the updated section on the Genotypic Variance, utilizing all the relevant preparations so far. I believe the Basic Principles are nearing completion - as far as my outline goes in any case. I need to insert a section (before Allele Substitution) on Genetic Drift, for which I have uploaded already a Figure into Wiki-Commons. A few illustrative graphs and examples could be helpful in the sections already "finished". My idea is to conclude the Extended Principles after Heritability. Then Inbreeding, Dispersed Variances, Polygenic Extensions, Epistasis, Selection, Multiple Characters, Relationships, Estimation Experiments, etc, could follow as individual advanced topics, along with any others any other person thinks of. Providing an "open structure" at the "end" may provide the required flexibility for others to add their bit. The issue is - where do you stop? This "open structure" may defer having to make a decision on this. I have gone to some trouble in the Basic Principles and Extended Principles to establish what might be considered a sufficient Introduction: where many readers might choose to stop, but with benefit gained nevertheless. If there is a requirement for detailed derivations, perhaps these could be wiki-linked as stubs? I'm sure there will be many other opinions! Donach (talk) 05:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Added figures and further comment to sections on Genotypic variances, Population mean, Allele and Genotype frequencies. Citations added in the last.Donach (talk) 01:02, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I've just noticed that the second-stage re-definition of the gene effects (Gene effects re-defined section) has "gone missing" somewhere along the way. It was there before. Without it, the next section has a "hole" in its logic. Unfortunately, I haven't kept a hard-copy of how it was, and I had managed to write it in a nicely succinct way.
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Is there any way we can "pull back" the earlier version? Or do I have to try to "re-invent the wheel"?Donach (talk) 08:25, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi! Go to the history page of this article, then find needed version (by clicking on the time), you can see changes which were made too at the "Compare selected versions", then click "Edit" and then - "Save page" (with an edit summary explaining what/why you did that). See also Help:Page history. --Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 08:57, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks to Edgars2007 for explaining a way out of that problem. You've just learned why I keep off-wiki manuscripts as electronic documents for any really complicated article edit. Keep up the good work. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 12:39, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you both. I'll attend to it soon. Donach (talk) 01:00, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
After searching through the "history page" it appears that it must have been a "2 o'clock in the morning" (literally) moment on my part. It appears that I never actually saved a copy of the paragraph I was concerned about. I have written it afresh, now - and Saved it ! Donach (talk) 11:33, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Added some sentences to the "Genotypic Variances" section, and inserted the graph showing the Fisher version. (talk) 12:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Some minor adjustments in the light of details in later sections under development. Donach (talk) 22:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Added major new section (1.4 Genetic drift) after weeks scratching around in my User Sandbox. This is probably the most difficult section of the whole piece, both for "them" and for "me". Getting it at the right "pitch" for so technical a section was quite a challenge. I hope I've succeeded, but I do need feedback if I haven't. This a very important part of Quantitative Genetics, possibly even more so than Selection (which is still to come). Donach (talk) 00:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm presently concentrating on various aspects of inbreeding, having arrived in that "frame of mind" after the work on Dispersion. So, I'm looking at the section on "Relationship", which looks like its quoting from a publication of some sort. However, there are no citations given, and I would like to know what they are. Can anyone provide the likely citation for these sections as they now stand?
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I've looked through the history with one of our database tools and found that the article cited these publications as references:
  • Falconer DS & Mackay TFC (1996). Introduction to Quantitative Genetics. Fourth edition. Addison Wesley Longman, Harlow, Essex, U.K.
  • Roff DA (1997). Evolutionary Quantitative Genetics. Chapman & Hall, New York.
  • Lynch M & Walsh B (1998). Genetics and Analysis of Quantitative Traits. Sinauer, Sunderland, MA.
Unfortunately, the contributors did not provide inline citation, so I regret that I don't have any additional information to provide. Mike VTalk 01:35, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
That is the problem indeed ! I find that whole section very difficult to make out. I am starting detailed work (in my User sandbox) on pedigree analysis, co-ancestry, etc etc, which I think will provide a better stating point than what is there. I feel it may be useful to place this present material into the article's sandbox once the new material is ready to move across from my User sandbox. Then we can see how it all can be fitted together once there is a planned base to work from. 12:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donach (talkcontribs)
  • Added a very good citation to support the Path analysis material in "Relationships - Path analysis", but it is not that used by the earlier editor. Donach (talk) 23:14, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Uploaded new section on Relationship. I believe I have covered everything that was in the earlier editor's version, plus some. I'm avoiding delving into Path Analysis as such. It could be a whole separate parallel article in its own right. I think the "older" paragraphs at the end of the section could be deleted now: but I'm not prepared to be the one to make that decision. (I'm too involved in making the alternative.) In any case, I think we have made some worthwhile improvement. Donach (talk) 11:32, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Loaded a section on "Other fertilization patterns" between the "Genotypic Variance" and "Dispersion and the Variance". This rounds-off an introduction on inbreeding and dispersion ; and the basic genotypic variance has been introduced as well. Now we can tackle the "Dispersion and Variance" section properly, with enough ground-work in place. With regard to the "Other fertilizations" section: it is somewhat of a "place keeper" - we can come back to here over the course of time, and add many other cases. Donach (talk) 11:31, 14 September 2014 (UTC).
  • Loaded new section on "Dispersion and the Genotypic variance". Also, started improvements on "Correlated traits". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donach (talkcontribs) 23:47, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Installed section on Selection; and tidied-up some clumsy English in the last paragraph of reproductive path analysis. More to come in this Selection section. Also preparing multiple-character selection which might fit better in the "Correlated traits" stub. Donach (talk) 00:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Some cross linking insertions to other sections, in "reproduction path analysis".Donach (talk) 04:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Some minor omissions fixed. The major section on "dispersion and Selection" is progressing in the User sand-box.Donach (talk) 06:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Inserted sections on "Dispersion and Selection" and "Genetic drift and Selection". Donach (talk) 01:18, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Some minor "clarification tweeks" in the selection and drift section. (Donach) (talk) 02:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Inserted new section 4 on "Resemblances amongst relatives". Donach (talk) 14:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Uploaded, and inserted into section on "Correlated attributes", an integrative discussion model to form basis of an outline on correlation amongst attributes. Work on this section is underway. Donach (talk) 06:31, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Two simple corrections: a syntax error in a sentence; a spelling error later. Donach (talk) 03:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Two further simple corrections: one in grammar, and another in some Greek symbols which had become altered. Looking ahead further, I notice that many Greek symbols have been converted to "?". This is irresponsible editing on someone's part, and it should desist. It's going to be a time-consuming job to re-establish the correct text: which I'm postponing for now. Will the culprit please "stay their hand"! Be assured: the use of Greek symbols is correct here.Donach (talk) 07:43, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Continued with the corrections. Clearly, whoever made the changes had no idea what they were doing: they should not do it again! No unusual symbols have been used in the original - all were straight-forward universally accepted mathematical symbols. If you don't know what they mean, you certainly should not alter what is there. As an example:- infinity (∞) certainly is not the same as "8" !!!!!!!! There is still much to correct. The whole section has been rendered almost useless by these changes. I am most displeased ..... Donach (talk) 10:12, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
    • @Donach:, these comments piqued my curiosity... The changes to mathematical symbols occurred in this edit by (talk), who I'll send a heads-up. Based on other constructive changes this person has made, I'm sure the symbol changes were accidental. I would guess that copied the article into some word processing program that couldn't handle the Greek symbols, made their changes in that program, then pasted the corrupted version into Wikipedia. I see you've already fixed most of the corrupted symbols, and I think I've just fixed the rest. You can see the pre-corrupted article here. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 12:58, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Repaired the damage to the sections on the "Genotypic variance". Also expanded and clarified the derivations, meanings and terminology of the Fisherian appraoch to the genotypic variance. Donach (talk) 22:44, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Started work on "Correlated attributes" (after a long hiatus). At last I'm tackling the LaTeX formulae code. Much of the previous will now get a "make-over" too - which should please the Editor's comment at the start! Donach (talk) 12:02, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
  • LaTeX'd several earlier sections, and improved general readability. Donach (talk) 12:47, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I have excised the section on Selection and Dispersion, for the present. It is severely compromised by its state of ill-repair, and requires much remedial action. It severely detracts from the article as a whole in its present state. I will work on it "in camera", and return it when it is repaired. I am also aware of the comment following "too long". What to do?Donach (talk) 08:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Too long?[edit]

I can see that Donach has put a great deal of work into this article, and I mean no disrespect by this, but at some 20,000 words (by my estimate), this article might be a twitch on the long side. The Wikipedia:Article_size suggest between 5,000 and 10,000 words in an article, and perhaps fewer for technical articles. This is because a user will probably not spend much more than an hour reading an article, and reading a technical article is likely to be slower. One solution to this problem is moving content into other articles. For some of this content, such as Pedigree Analysis, new articles will need to be created, but for others, such as Coefficient of relationship, there are existing articles. Perhaps we should look at creating some new articles, and harmonize the content in existing articles? LarryBoy79 (talk) 05:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

  • I am worried about this issue also. My intention was to give as comprehensive an overview as I could: and it is difficult sometimes to decide what should be included and what could be separate. I would appreciate any guidance on this. Donach (talk) 08:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

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